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Meeting concerning Limit on number of cabs

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waheed
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Post by Aftab Tue 11 Dec 2007 - 15:38

At the end of the working day a meeting was held at PMC organised by the STTA to discuss response to the council's proposal on limitation policy. A report into taxi demand was at hand from Hafeas that has long been awaited by all of the trade. The decisions taken were:
1 Ask for total limitation with three yealy review, and each time after a demand survey.
2 No to £5 as a minimum fare, but an agreed structured fare increase based on inflation etc.
3 Other points such as driver training proposals and everybody required to have a radio were left for later till the Licensing officials can be presaent to explain the proposals further.
I asked for reason why Hafeas was reluctant to join us here only top be met with barage of abuse towards the forum and most of the forummers. I politely told Mr Hafeas the it was unfotunate he found this forum in any way threarening and it has never been my intention for it be so for the STTA, and left it at that.
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Post by Admin Tue 11 Dec 2007 - 16:50

Driver training proposals have been ongoing since 2005, I remember something mentioned on the old forum about that. It would be a good thing if the training is of a standard that actually changes something.
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Post by Aftab Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 8:57

The Labour cabinet has recommended that a limit be put on at 830. The recommendation is just that, "a recommendation" and not a final decission. The final decission will be made at the full council meeting on the 9th of January.
The difficulty with this situation is that SCC Licensing Section already have applications that will bring the number to 840 Shocked And they can't refuse to accept applications till the final decision is made, putting unwarranted pressure on the licensing section staff.
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Post by ahmed Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 9:46

Your info may be wrong cus I've just got a call from a mate saying limit has been put on from today. SO PLEASE MAKE SURE, we do not want to mislead people do we?

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Post by tony Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 14:57

Mislead? Good and proper but by your union my friend. Just read abot it in the Star, and Aftab's report is spot on. There is no limit till the full council meeting on 9th Jan' 08. I'm on private but wanted you lads to get your limit, just too many cabs for you to graft a living, I don't know how you lads do it just driving around empty mile after mile.

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Post by Admin Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 15:09

There maybe a good reason for the apparent misunderstanding but whatever information the STTA put out is not really our problem and we should refrain from commenting on the STTA from now on please. The organisation is bigger than any individual and we from this forum wish to help the same trade that this orgaanisation represents us all. If we have any personal conflicts then they should not be sorted on here but face to face and not make this forum a place of squables.
I look forward to your co-opperation.
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Post by Admin Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 15:26

Aftab wrote:The Labour cabinet has recommended that a limit be put on at 830. The recommendation is just that, "a recommendation" and not a final decision. The final decision will be made at the full council meeting on the 9th of January.
The difficulty with this situation is that SCC Licensing Section already have applications that will bring the number to 840 Shocked And they can't refuse to accept applications till the final decision is made, putting unwarranted pressure on the licensing section staff.
Going back to topic however, do we know what would happen if any individual turns up now with a cab and wants it plated? Would they say we've reached the limit or take his money and say no or take his money and say yes?


Last edited by on Sun 16 Dec 2007 - 13:46; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Aftab Wed 12 Dec 2007 - 17:59

No I don't believe they can refuse to accept an application because there simply is no ground yet for refusal. Legal position I couldn't give because of not being qualified but my understanding is that untill the reccomendation is ratified by the full council, nothing has changed and the 830 as the limiting number is already out of date.
Here is an interesting quote from the report that's infront of the council
(The 17 page report is on line CLICK HERE )
4.11 The consultants’ report makes clear that a reintroduction of the limit would not be advisable at this time for a number of reasons:

• There is no overwhelming evidence in the report that supply and demand for taxi services in Sheffield is unbalanced. Therefore the market is functioning well, indicating that there is no need to impose a limit on taxi numbers
• Demand has risen steadily in Sheffield over the past ten years, with a sharp rise since 2003, linked to the growing economy. There is no evidence that this increase in demand will halt in the near future, and therefore introducing a limit might restrict the ability of the taxi market to respond to this demand.
• Although there is no significant unmet demand at most times of the day, there is pressure on taxi supply at certain critical points, particularly at weekend night times.
• Hackney carriages are the only taxis that are accessible for disabled people. Restricting provision of these vehicles may lead to negative impacts on this group of users.

In addition it is clear that:

• There are no positive benefits for the taxi user of introducing a limit on taxi numbers. The market would be less able to respond to rising demand, and there is no evidence to suggest that the quality of service offered would improve.
• There is a significant risk of legal challenge if the Council reintroduced limitation from people who wanted to enter the market but were prevented from doing so because of the limit (see Section 7).



Also above is mentioned the Taxi driver training, something Ian and I corresponded on two years ago, and here is one of Ian's emails. Had our STTA been on the ball they too would have known about it and if they did know, why didn't the rest of the trade?
Smile

----- Original Message -----
From: AFTAB HANIF
To: IAN BARLEY
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Taxis


discussions have commenced with a potential training provider?
ask Paul if he knows anything about this lol. It will be a knowledge enhancing excercise if only to find out what they require a potential trainer to teach and to what standard. If it is similar to the Citizenship sort of cr*p then my mother can teach them that.
----- Original Message -----
From: IAN BARLEY
To: AFTAB HANIF
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Taxis


how sad am I? just reading up on some council CR*P and come across this...

16.0 KNOWLEDGE TEST

16.1 Strategic Resources and Performance Scrutiny and Policy
Development Board “ensure that the knowledge test takes account of new developments in the city;”

16.2 Management response to Cabinet –

“The test for potential drivers is currently under review. A report dealing with aspects of communication skills and numeracy is to be considered by the Licensing Board.”

16.3 Following the Licensing Board meeting on 20 September 2005 that gave support to the introduction of a basic skills assessment for potential drivers discussions have commenced with a potential training provider.
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Post by sheffph Thu 13 Dec 2007 - 4:28

I did concider going into cabs but after reading this palava I think it's better off being on PH. Shocked

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Post by ahmed Fri 14 Dec 2007 - 1:18

From the number of times this topic has been viewed, I can safely say a nerve may have been touched Laughing
I did warn both you lads that most of our friends in STTA have a phobia of computers and to avoid being found out they will try and avoid us on line and tell others to do so.
I agree with training of drivers simply after seeing examples you just know that any form of training will help. If only someone gave these new drivers a copy of the "etiquette" fro this forum, that might have helped.
As for limitation I don't think they should limit, and you can see why, because it just plays into hands of investers, so the ones who have bought cabs just to make money should stew and get out of the trade, but if you limit they walk away with a pot of gold only to come back in three years time. Grrrrrrrr.

Sorry admin about mentioning the stta but had to be said, and please don't deleat it jocolor

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Post by Aftab Fri 14 Dec 2007 - 8:10

I am only a taxi driver and by no means qualified to give advice but here is what I understand of the situation. . We now have a split in the people given the task of deciding the outcome between those who understand the legal implications and those that don't. On one hand you have the report with this reccomendation
4.11 The consultants’ report makes clear that a reintroduction of the limit would not be advisable at this time for a number of reasons:

There is no overwhelming evidence in the report that supply and demand for taxi services in Sheffield is unbalanced. Therefore the market is functioning well, indicating that there is no need to impose a limit on taxi numbers
Demand has risen steadily in Sheffield over the past ten years, with a sharp rise since 2003, linked to the growing economy. There is no evidence that this increase in demand will halt in the near future, and therefore introducing a limit might restrict the ability of the taxi market to respond to this demand.
• Although there is no significant unmet demand at most times of the day, there is pressure on taxi supply at certain critical points, particularly at weekend night times.
• Hackney carriages are the only taxis that are accessible for disabled people. Restricting provision of these vehicles may lead to negative impacts on this group of users.

In addition it is clear that:

• There are no positive benefits for the taxi user of introducing a limit on taxi numbers. The market would be less able to respond to rising demand, and there is no evidence to suggest that the quality of service offered would improve.
• There is a significant risk of legal challenge if the Council reintroduced limitation from people who wanted to enter the market but were prevented from doing so because of the limit (see Section 7).
So the clear implication is that a survey report that the council is relying on to impose a limit is actually not going to defend a limitation policy. Any legal challenge is likely to succeed because there is no defence from the people who undertook the survey, and in fact they advocate against a limit. The politicians who back the limit policy can't defend the policy in court so would be an expensive excersise in pleasing a majority of taxi trade at the risk of being taken to the cleaners by a few would be taxi drivers.
Where does that leave the limit? No one really knows till the 9th January meeting because with a hung council it could go either way. This is why I felt strongly that we shouldn't cellebrate success and start taking credit when decission is yet to be made.
Applications already in would take us far above the proposed limit and more prospectors are eager to join the queue, so interesting times Basketball
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Post by Admin Fri 14 Dec 2007 - 10:01

Although there is no limit but the Licensing are telling people that they may not get a licence because the figure the limit has been set at has already been reached so anyone interested in a license needs to waite before committing to a cab. The limit is in effect on because of uncertainty and not an official limit.
From this board we can advise people that they may not get a plate but also that if they wish to challenge the council then they need to go the high court route and challenge the council decission, if limit goes on, but can be costly.
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Post by waheed Fri 14 Dec 2007 - 10:14

I do not know why our brothers are so excited about limit when it is not implace actually

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Post by Aftab Fri 14 Dec 2007 - 15:01

waheed wrote:I do not know why our brothers are so excited about limit when it is not implace actually
Our brothers don't get a lot of success and when they get a little bit they exagerate it just to please themselves. Laughing
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Post by Admin Sat 15 Dec 2007 - 6:13

It's not about exageration at all, although there arn't many successes to point to. The city Councillors work within the Law and they are perfectly within their rights to impose a limit if they wish. The recommendation has already been adopted and is likely to succeed on 9th January, which will be a welcome news for all in the trade. We all know there are far too many taxis and this might provide a breather for working taxi drivers.
We must not comment on individuals in the STTA, no matter if we have a problem with anyone's attitude or whatever because that gets personal and as such against the rules of this forum, but we should work to help the trade. If that helps STTA then so be it but we must put the trade first.
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Post by Aftab Sat 15 Dec 2007 - 15:24

The main point I keep hamering home is made be redrobbo on sheffield forum discussion and I quote:
[QUOTE=redrobbo;2935310] Officer recommendations are only recommendations. It is up to councillors to determine the matter.
Also the figure mentioned as 830 is not final figure and may change. The vote is very close and the outcome can change by one or two people going one way or the other. I am sure behind the scenes, people are doing their best for a satisfactory outcome, but limit is not yet a guarantee. The case for a limit however is clear, but of course political rivalry is still alive and well and may just spoil the day.
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Post by Aftab Sun 16 Dec 2007 - 14:16

Further indepth look at this issue and the chances of success on 9th January in the new members only section. Interesting input from someone who know a little more than us in the trade do.
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Post by M A Sun 16 Dec 2007 - 16:40

I personally disagree with a complete halt to incoming of new veichles as you and i know when we have got a monoply the price of commodity just rices as the time goes on. imagine the price of that commodity in three years ! I would have prefared it even if we had a small no of issues per year between 15 to 30 to keep the heat off.

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Post by Admin Tue 18 Dec 2007 - 11:27

That seems a fair asessment MA sir, and at the same time you will agree that our friends won't accept that either. The STTA can take the lead and suggest such a solution to the likes of Lib Dems and others and probably would get them to agree and maybe offer to help the trade in doing a deal. The present situation doesn't inspire confidence though does it?
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Post by Aftab Thu 20 Dec 2007 - 3:42

Just posted another quote from a councillor in the members only section that you can access after logging in. The quote clearly indicates no done deal on the limitation issue, so still can't understand why we are resting easy
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Post by stf Thu 20 Dec 2007 - 10:19

Aftab wrote:
Other points such as driver training proposals and everybody required to have a radio were left for later till the Licensing officials can be presaent to explain the proposals further.
This point seems to have been missed by almost all of us. The driver training and that a licence condition to have a radio from a company. Any views on this issue? After all this will affect everybody and limit or no limit.

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Post by ahmed Thu 20 Dec 2007 - 18:16

Most of our friends can do with being sent back to School IMO. Wink

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Post by Aftab Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 1:05

AHMED wrote:Most of our friends can do with being sent back to School IMO. Wink
Most of your friends probably Very Happy You ought to keep better company Wink

The training is not a major problem to accept when you see the attitude towards the job and customers and indeed other taxi drivers from some newer recruits but the radio condition is a no no.
The simple reason is that it would be a minefield for the SCC to enforce. With all the right reasons and justifications this extra burden cannot be accepted by the trade whatever the reason.
Where do we draw the line for example, do we have a radio and what happens if a driver chooses not to use it? What happens if a radio is installed but is not tuned to any one company, does it satisfy the condition of licence and how do they propose to enforce that rule? Needs thinking about.
Although if a council wanted to make it a condition of licence they have the power attatch any condition to the licence that they see reasonable, but in a legal challenge however a judge may not agree.
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Post by Zee Fri 21 Dec 2007 - 10:17

Yeah, thats right let make these companies mega rich, as if we are not already turning the wheels for them !

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Post by stf Sun 23 Dec 2007 - 17:54

If you feel strongly enough about not putting money in their pockets then that should be the trigger to change the way you work things. I was impressed with what ray suggested with that textataxi thing but that can't work on it's own can it? Somebody has to take initiative.
Anyway have a good Christmas whaether you celebrate it or not but most of all have a safe one cheers

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